Authentic Maithuna' vs. Ordinary Sexual Intercourse

"The *real* Tantric sexual practices [i.e. maithuna] reach the sadhak only when 'fun and recreation' are no longer relevant concepts."

"sounds like my marriage "

I replied: *LOL!!!!!* You are funny, Cathie!

I guess my statement does require a brief expansion, though. I think there is a big misunderstanding here about the use of 5-M's in ritual, versus one's habits and engagements in everyday life.

The thing is, the 5M's tend to be used in rare, specific, and highly controlled ritual contexts. Maithuna in such situations is not "fun" or "sexy", etc. It is pooja to Devi. If one thinks of it as anything else, one really isn't qualified to be doing it.

Now, that doesn't mean that qualified initiates into the Tantric traditions are passionless, po-faced bores in bed. On the contrary, as purveyors of the slews of so-called "Tantric Sex" books and videos have discovered, a "Tantric" worldview does tend to bring a new and improved perspective to ordinary sexual relations; one that increases pleasure and gratification for all involved.

But merely bringing that so-called "Tantric" perspective into the bedroom doesn't mean that you're suddenly engaged in ritual maithuna. That's a completely different thing.

Similarly, though some Tantric pujas may involve offering alcohol (brandy, etc) to Devi, and the sadhak partaking a small amount him or herself -- that doesn't mean that Tantrics are drunken sots who get a kick out of abusing all kinds of mind-altering substances.

I would argue, on the contrary, that the true Tantric adept is one of the more self-controlled and disciplined living beings on this earth. Again, that doesn't mean s/he can't have fun -- but it does mean that s/he isn't very likely to confuse ordinary sex with Tantric ritual maithuna and ordinary booze with Tantric ritual madya.

Aum MAtangyai NamaH

Devi Bhakta wrote : Similarly, though some Tantric pujas may involve offering alcohol (brandy, etc) to Devi, and the sadhak partaking a small amount him or herself -- that doesn't mean that Tantrics are drunken sots who get a kick out of abusing all kinds of mind-altering substances.

This reminds me of my experiences hanging out with the Tantriks in Tarapith. I watched the temple pujaris do a huge Yantra puja with at least a dozen bottles of open booze, both moonshine (Bangla) and whiskey (english) afterwards everyone taking small amounts themselves and not trying to get wrecked...

Now in the cremation grounds with all these crazy pagala Tantrik fakers (not to be confused with fakirs) you see these guys dressed like holy men and getting money from people then immediately buying large bottles of local moonshine and getting as drunk as possible.

One man was my best friend until he asked for money and I refused him, he then got enraged and claimed I cheated him because he gave me the privelage of his darshan!

You have put it perfectly. There is serious business and fake business. In serious business none gets drunk. Infact I am of opinion in serious business it is rather very difficult to get drunk.

It is also a test that if one gets drunk what has taken place is NOT pooja.

Lili Masamura
And what about the three curses that reside in alcohol? I believe I have mentioned this before. Unless one performs a Soma Yajna over the liquor before it is drunk, you are taking into your body a cursed substance! One has only to look at all the human suffering associated directly or indirectly with alcohol drinking to have proof of this. There is a ritual for purifying liquor, given in the book "Kali Puja".

John Mathieson
I have heard that there is an ancient Masonic ritual of the partaking of alcohol where as one learns to control the alcohol devas I have also hear of a Tantric practice using the uncontrolled effects that whisky has on the brain that over promote the imagination The tantric in the middle of the night goes to the cemetery makes himself comfortable on a grave begins his japa takes a swig very time he has a thought of fear he takes another swig apparently the mind plays all its games on the sadhaka. The pseudo ghost follows the tantric home and the tantric perfects the practice when he overcomes the fear of death.

Personally I would not recommend such a sadhana to anyone although under the right situation and I thought that I was ready I would do it. I believe these are very advanced practices that yogis do once they have already obtain very high stability within the mind and of the nervous system. They have already successfully perfected other less demanding sadhanas for them to face the obstacles and deepest fears in there mind.

sankara menon
The shudhi process is very much there is ritual drinking omprem
The only way that liquor can be purified is by dealcoholizing it. All this rubbish about including alcohol in pUjAs, is merely an attempt by the weak to justify their dependence on alcohol and to cover up their inability attain a transcendent consciousness through their own efforts.

OMPREM said “All this rubbish about including alcohol in pUjAs, is merely an attempt by the weak to justify their dependence on alcohol and to cover up their inability attain a transcendent consciousness through their own efforts.”

This shows the utter lack of knowledge and traditions that even Vishnuevananda, his own Guru, would have frowned upon. As lilith said in all probability all this talk of paths other than that which uses 5 Ms is for people who cannot understand or excape the pitfalls of VIra sadhana.

Gurus have a tendency to safeguard their disciples from danger by saying “ahhhhhhhhhh that it’s all not correct” especially to weak disciples. The mistaken Disciples take it as a solemn statement that, “other paths are wrong”. That is disciples who are not reasonably grounded; those who are reasonably well grounded (It does not take a HIGHLY ADVANCED disciple, but someone who is reasonably intelligent) to understand that the path is not “wrong” per se but the path is wrong “for him/her”.

Having had reasonable associations both with Shivananda Saraswati and his deciple Vishnu devananda going back about 4+ decades I never heard then condemn the paths per se; but have heard them say; “Han!! Han!! Who to hai; magar hame who nahi chaahiye” –{yes yes it is there but we do not need it} mind you this is a common restraint one hears from spiritual leaders when deciples ask about many sadhana forms in the texts. When some ask the very same persons say “Han who to hai, bahaut mushkil hai” without any further comments. {yes it is there; but a difficult path}.

My own Guru, a woman and a Brahmin to boot (and a widow too) would never invite a non initiate to her pooja. But during pooja she will have a Kumkum Tilak and there will be one drop – mind you DROP – of alcohol in her VisheshArghyA. That she used to keep in small bottles and adding of which only those in the know noted.

After the pooja, the will wipe off the kumkum tilak before she emerges because she has to conform to the mores of widows not wearing kumkum.

And to her shishyas she used to say a pooja is no pooja unless just a drop of alcohol is added to the VisheshArghyA. A DROP is not something to get drunk on or indulge in anything. The other makaras were replaced by specific pratheekas. Alcohol alone was never replaced by pratheekas – Omprem may not be aware about the temple poojas in Kerala. In the great Ettumanoor temple where Shiva is worshipped as Aghora along with other dhyanas at particular times) I have had the privilege of observing the Kalasha abhishekas really at close hand when my aunt’s father-in-law presided over them. Even his close associates were not aware of the small ampoule of alcohol inside his dress while the various Kalashas were being prepared and suddenly when the preparation of “Asava Kalasha” (Kalasha of wine) is going on he will suddenly distract everybody and the small1 milliliter of alcohol will be dropped in. None the wiser!! Mind you he was one of the most respected Brahmins of his time.

He told me, when my time is over and after the time of my immediate successor my family will suffer because they are not capable of receiving the real esoteric secrets. He said it most sadly. Indeed now the family suffers from various things. I would rather not elaborate.

One of his successors (who is a very good man) told me Lalitasahasranama is pornographic because it describes HER intimately – I was so angry I asked him to come and see me privately- of course he did not!! And told his relation – the great man’s son “I dare not!! I know what he will do to me”

I am not saying all this to emphasize my importance. But as incidents of mistaken ideas from not listening carefully to the Guru.

The Kaula Marga is, as Lili says, is not for the weak; it is for the VIRA and that path is not chosen by the practitioner but the path chooses the person.

Each sadhaka has his own private path. Let one who has not treaded it or understood it criticize others. There are some here who knew nothing about it was initiated by great Gurus and have understood the paths in no time and attained even siddhis (not me OK? I am still a novice). All of them as far as I know are neither drunkards nor debauchers.

This omnibus generalization on the basis of a path taught to one individual by his Guru (without knowing what else he taught some others) is incorrect.

I am sorry about the verbal diarrhea. Please forgive me as I have no intention of offending anyone but to clarify things in my own light.

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