Sex and Sadhana [ Sept/Oct 2005 ]


vikram vanam
Can sadhaka indulge in sex and also do sadhana keeping in mind that the happiness he gets would be offered at the feet of the divinity?

sankara menon
If it were that simple.......................

Mahamuni
But who is capable of really doing that?

Ganpra
Interesting question.

Let us take a hypothetical case where some one is doing it. Let us assume the so called sadhaka is male.

The most basic of the rules of Sadhana is sincerity aka Bhava. For such sadhana, not even any mantra is required. Examples are Kannappa nayanar in Thiruvilayadal puranam and the elephant & spider as in Thiruvaanaikka sthala puranam. Kannappan was a tribal who knew no mantra, still Shiva granted him entry into HIS abode over the Pujari who was performing daily rituals to HIM. Elephant and spider - no need to mention that they cannot chant mantras.

Thus, if a male sadhaka is making love (not just sex) to his partner, if he is not thinking of her (his partner), but thinking of HER (Godess) I doubt how it will be possible to make love. If the sadhaka is thinking of HER and having sex (not making love) to woman, then the sadhaka is not sincere either. So it is not sadhana. This so far is only from the worldly perspective.

If the sadhaka assumes that thinking of HER and making love to a woman is sadhana, I pity him. Not because he is deluding himself, but because what he will get. There is a saying that there is no hell like a woman scorned. If it applies to a woman in this world, I will not like to think of the effect of the Empress of the Worlds being scorned.

Assuming the sadhaka does manage something like in the second case, Shiva is not going to take it very well. Trident stuck in the bu*t may look funny in cartoons, but in real life it will be more than the proverbial pain in the bu*t. Again holy wrath is not something imaginable.

For all that matters to you, there is only one kaula who you know and must heed. That is your guru. So this looooooong post boils down to only 3 words.....Ask your Guru!

Reading something which has been given IN PART to emphasize a greater cause (in a fuller context) and forming ideas is not good for life (as in sadhana).

SR.Raj kumar
Sex is attained with the total control of all the six senses. All the senses are concentrating of the satisfaction derived by the ejaculation/orgasm. Eyes behold something beautiful. ears are closed to any music and concentrate only on the act of sex. The sense of touch feels nothing but the coupleing of the bodies. Similarly the taste and smell. Above all, the mind coordinates all the senses towards the sexual bliss. Can anyone do any other thing while ejaculating or attaining an orgasm? No. No man or woman can. Because all his senses are lost in the ecstatic joy deriuved from sex climax. Hence in such an act a person shall definitely forget God, unless he is in an act with some low profile goddesses like yakshinis, mohinis,etc where sex is a must and part of sadhana. Hence satvik sadhana has the compulsory rule that sex should be abstained.

Secondly it is the semen which mixes with the blood forming the shakthi in the body.Only a person who has abstained from sex shall be able to attain results on a very faster note.

One sincere advice. Plz do not indulge in sexual activites with mohinis or yakshinis. It is very difficult for an person to control them and the result shall be fatal.

Brahmaleenananda
WHAT DO YOU MEAN bY YAKSHINI AND MOHINI'S? WHERE DO YOU FIND THEM? ROR SOME BRAHMACHARIES WOMEN EITHER LOOK LIKE YAKSHINIS OR FOR SOME THEY LOOK LIKE MOTHERS

Arjuna Taranandanatha
sankara menon wrote :If it were that simple

But still it is better than nothing. If one starts from intention of devotion, it will lead him step by step to the purity of heart.

In any casy everyone has a full right to love and be loved. And to go against love is an obvious obstacle to sadhana. As it is said, "bind nothing". Sex is natural and needed, and since it is transformed through devotion, sad-bhavana, it is most sacred.

SR.Raj kumar wrote : Sex is attained with the total control of all the six senses. All the senses are concentrating of the satisfaction derived by the ejaculation/orgasm. Eyes behold something beautiful. ears are closed to any music and concentrate only on the act of sex….”

Exactly. But this is the true glimpse of Paramapada or Mahabhava.It is clearly stated in Vijnana-bhairava that the bliss of orgasm is a revealing of Brahma-tattva.

Hence in such an act a person shall definitely forget God,

He "forgets" because he IS God. This is perfect the advaya-sthiti.

Hence satvik sadhana has the compulsory rule that sex should be abstained.

This is contrary to the doctrine of Agamas and even Vedas. For grihastha sex is a MUST - if one doesn't satisfy his life partner sexually it is adharma.Sex may not be used as a means of sadhana - that is understandable. For tamasik people are incapable of effective sadhana, they have to keep away from sexual sadhanas. While true sattvik upasakas can and do use those...

Secondly it is the semen which mixes with the blood forming the shakthi in the body. Only a person who has abstained from sex shall be able to attain results on a very faster note.

To mix semen and blood - which in fact brings up tremendous shakti - one has to have sex. But these methods are related to virachara, path of hero. Only one who follows his own true will and loves Shakti is suitable for it. adhikArI prahRiShTAtmA strIbhakto vijitendriyaH.

Once again, let me put it: whether one has normal sex or not is not an obstacle by itself for spiritual path. It is mere body activity which doesn't affect consciousness. But if one is married then being celibate becomes a sin. Then, if sex is in love, it uplifts consciousness. Because "only love saves" and "liberation is achieved through enjoyment". Finally, if we speak about kaula-adept, for him sex is one of the most essential parts of sadhana. Sadhana which is far above so called "sattvic" upasana of exoteric sects.

Mahamuni wrote :But who is capable of really doing that? If we take such an attitude, we have to stop doing anything.

Who is capable to attain sahaja-samadhi in a day through yoga and dhyana? Who is capable to get darshan of desired God's form in a few repetitions of vidya? Who is capable of pure selfless love and ecstatic passion?

We do have our limitations and sins. And it is impossible for us to change our nature, to transform our being into siddha. It is only God's grace that can help us.

In spite of saying that "oh, who can do that?", let us pray and do. Of course, any actions and deeds do not open God to us. But if we involve ourselves into devotion, it will open our hearts to God's grace, which is ever present and awaiting to fill our very being.

Someone asked a normal and simple question. The reason is clear - hindu mind (and not only hindu of course) is overloaded with bullshit crap that was pushed by priests for centuries. Understanding of spiritual path got perverted. What we can do is to give a clear and sincere explanation of the matter. To make a person even more burdened is of no help! Why not to show a way for him?

God doen't want us to torture ourselves in His name. This disgusting idea is contrary to the very concept of God. God loves us and wants us to live in love...

Respected Ganpra, You speak about Bhava, but it seems that you had no experience of true love. The sophistical exegesis which you had given shows nothing more that the absense of true understanding - sajjnana. And if we take a point of philosophy and not sadhana - I suggest you to read some material about rasa-theory, aropa and sahaja. It may clarify the matter for you at least intellectually...I am sorry to say this, but i have to speak. If not for U, then for others who read the thread.

"striyA samastA sakalA jagatsu" - says Devi-mahatmya - "SHE is present in the world in women".

"Come forth, o children, under the stars, & take your fill of love!"(Liber AL 1.12)

Len Rosenberg
Arjuna wrote : whether one has normal sex or not is not an obstacle by itself for spiritual path. It is mere body activity which doesn't affect consciousness. But if one is married then being celibate becomes a sin

Where do holy men like Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, or avatars like Hanuman, fit in with your paradigm? They were married, yet never consummated their marriages. Were they sinful?

Childofdevi
Hi Arjuna,After reading your post, I went back and read Ganpra's post. A better reply than Ganpra's reply could not have been given. Now it is clear that somebody other than Ganpra is in need of "true understanding"

Thanks to Ganpra for that wise reply!!!

Arjuna Taranandanatha
Ramakrishna btw did practice sexual sadhanas, although his followers had put much effort to conceal that fact. Hanuman is a mythical figure - which is useless to discuss in such manner. There is particular symbolism behind this "monkey god" figure, but that is another theme.

sankara menon
My dear Arjuna: Yes but sex as an upasana tool is taken at a time when one has reached a cetain stage. Till that stage is reached sex is still the simple old sex. Thats what I meant with my comment.

Yes it is a powerful tool in the hands of a qualified upasaka; otherwise its is like a garland in the hands of a monkey. I bow to you.

Arjuna Taranandanatha
completely agree with you. I wasn't advocating sexual sadhanas for every Bill & Dick. As I understood the starting point of the thread was the following: whether it is possible for sadhaka to have sex and offer joy to Devi. And to this question the answer is yes. Devoted attitude to shakti is achievable for every sincerely loving person, that is why this niyama can be given to everyone. Celibacy is unnatural and in consequence degrading thing in general case. But it doesn't mean one has to adopt vama-naya rituals etc, not at all. These are taken on only after particular blessing of the kaula-guru for that. If one has sex, it's OK. And it is beautiful if kama is joined with bhakti...

Yoosh
sex is a delusion..

Ganpra
It is very enlightening that since I posted a long comment, that I have no understanding. That still does not explain how you came to the conclusion that I have not experienced true love.

Anyway, I am glad that after several posts you cleared up a point of your posting saying that you would not "prescribe sexual sadhana for every Bill & Dick.....These are taken on only after particular blessing of the kaula-guru for that."

I understand [yes, sometimes I do] that people may be fed up with looong posts and do not read until the end, where I told Vikram "..this loooooong post boils down to only three words.....Ask your Guru," which he should have, after reading the translation of SL verse 27 on SS home page and asked here if it is ok or not to offer the happiness attained by having "sex." It also means he is not here yet. Adopting sex and sadha at this stage of his development might be Harmful [as I mentioned in my PS note - or BS note].

Unlike some who post for everybody to read because they are so well read, knowledgeable and want to share their expertise with other shakthas, postings of mine are for specific persons. They are generally irrelevant to others.

And, respectful greetings on your attainment of the stage of natha from a dasa.

Arjuna Taranandanatha
Yoosh wrote :sex is a delusion
funny as a joke, ridiculous as a view

childofdevi
Arjuna wrote : I wasn't advocating sexual sadhanas for every Bill & Dick. As i understood the starting point of the thread was the following: whether it is possible for sadhaka to have sex and offer joy to Devi. And to this question the answer is yes. Devoted attitude to shakti is achievable for every sincerely loving person, that is why this niyama can be given to everyone. Celibacy is unnatural and in consequence degrading thing in general case. But it doesn't mean one has to adopt vama-naya rituals etc, not at all. These are taken on only after particular blessing of the kaula-guru for that. If one has sex, it's OK. And it is beautiful if kama is joined with bhakti...

Hi Arjuna, If this is what you REALLY meant, then we are in complete agreement.

Arjuna Taranandanatha
Ganpra wrote : I understand [yes, sometimes I do] that people may be fed up with looong posts and do not read until the end, where I told Vikram "..this loooooong post boils down to only three words.....Ask your Guru,"

I have read Ur post till the end . And I have seen this statement. But you miss the point now. I put it again:
1. To enjoy sex is OK and is not disturbing sadhana.
2. It is very beneficial to put some spiritual intention in that. It is good to pray while enjoying. It is helpful to offer the bliss to Devi. Sex in love IS spiritual and sacred WITHOUT any rituals and sadhanas.

3. But to use sexual practices given in Tantras one necessarily has to get kula-diksha and upadesha from guru. Without that it becomes a misuse.
4. Concluding, ANY sadhaka can enjoy sex and have to offer it to Devi - in bhava of devotion, but NOT as a specific ritual (which are reserved strictly to kaulabhishiktas).

When you kiss a woman with love, it is a puja to Devi. Even if done inconsciously. Sexual delight is a sparc of Divine, even if there is no idea of spirituality in mind of partners. Becuase bhava is not dependent upon one's ideas bla-bla-blah. Love is Divine. which he should have, after reading the translation of SL verse 27 on SS home page and asked here if it is ok or not to offer the happiness attained by having "sex."

YES. This doesn't require any diksha. Love is natural and spontaneous, sahaja. God is ever present in our hearts. Then what is the problem??

Adopting sex and sadha at this stage of his development might be harmful [as I mentioned in my PS note - or BS note].

"Sex and sadhana" is very different from "sexual sadhanas" (specific mystical rituals of Kula). There is no harm in the first, but the second requires initiation.

Lalit Mishra
Sex is mere a physical excercise and the frustrated guru who took to sadhan path and couldn't get enough sex, brought this as a sadhana activity, before dignifying sex as a spritual means of sadhna see to dogs and pigs, they do sex like hell, are they getting spritually enlightenment.

Sex is a pleasurable act but no way a special divine act, if sex is special then urinating is also same way speacial. so, pls. dont get confused with Sex Specific Kauls or Guru's. they are behind beautifull girls any way just that is their frustration.

If you know any single guru who got Siddhi or Height becoz of Sex in his life as a sadhana activity, pls. share with all of us.

Arjuna Taranandanatha
Lalit Mishra wrote: Sex is mere a physical excercise and the frustrated guru who took to sadhan path and couldn't get enough sex, brought this as a sadhana activity, before dignifying sex as a spritual means of sadhna see to dogs and pigs, they do sex like hell, are they getting spritually enlightenment

This is the utter nonsense. And while you do have a full right to be stuck in this worldly opinions and suffer, you have no right to speak against saints whom you no nothing about! Keep this in mind, DEVI is not every time soft and kind. What you say is aparadha to Her - because you put blame on Her revelation and holy people.

Coming to the point of Ur arguement, it doesn't stand any critisism. If U have no consciousness and only body, it may be right for U personally. But for those who have heart and soul, this is wrong. Pigs and dogs BTW do NOT enjoy sex, they simply multiply. There is no love and no joy - because of no consciousness. Humans are the only able to freely enjoy sex - that is what makes tremendous difference with animals.

Maybe for U sex is same as urination - then i pity U... Enjoy Ur frustrated mind and accept final destruction - vinAshakAle viparIta buddhiH...

sex is a pleasurable act but no way a special divine act, if sex is special then urinating is also same way speacial. so, pls. dont get confused with Sex Specific Kauls or Guru's. they are behind beautifull girls any way, just that is their frustration.

When you say that to be behind a girl is something wrong - it is your mind who is sick. Who are perverted are those "gurus" who preach celibacy to devotees but f...ck young boys or women in private. Those freaks develop these "antisex" ideas due to their hypocrisy. Yes, there are some people who speak about Tantra and do nonsense. But they are MUCH less in number than fake yogis, money-minded sannyasis and politics from religion.

Also, EVERY pleasurable act can be done as sacred. Any bliss manifested is a form of Brahman, naturally Brahman can be known through conscious enjoyment.

if u know any single guru who got Siddhi or Height becoz of Sex in his life as a sadhana activity, pls. share with all of us.

YES I do. And several more advanced upasakas here in group do know. kochu1tz
Yes!! every one is entitled to their views. However would it not be better to understand what it is - if you are eligible and gets a competent guru - try - and then speak

silentwatcher1947
Kochu ,do you have a guru and have all the knowledge to speak?

bhagatirtha wrote:Pigs and dogs BTW do NOT enjoy sex, they simply multiply. There is no love and no joy - because of no consciousness.

Even animals are more selective in their partners and if there is love in them too.

Humans are the only able to freely enjoy sex - that is what makes tremendous difference with animals.

Sorry, but I think this is a western Christian concept of sex. Hinduism or Shakti worship does not believe in having sex with all girls to gain in Sadhana. That is lust and you do not need a guru to tell you that. Otherwise why do Shakti worship, you can go to bar or pub or a prostitute and gain shakti-sadhana by having sex.

Are there are such gurus having sex with unmarried women or with others wife to gain in others sadhana?

Please do not stimulate sex thoughts in this group.

ishaan
Yes sex as a form of Sadhana is a very deceptive thing and must be avoided at all costs. Its like fooling ourselves. Osho preached about "Sambhog se Samadhi" meaning "From Sex to Sublime" which is impossible. Following Osho many people have generated a perverted meaning of Shakti Sadhana. It is a great Tragedy.

Veer bhava speaks of considering Goddess as your wife or wife as ur goddess and get spiritual elevation, but I think Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa has shown us all the forms of Shakti Worship and he never had Sex.

So stop considering sex as a spiritual practice my dear Brothers and Sisters. Woman is a mother first and shakti sadhana considering a woman/shakti as a mother first is the best way.
NMadasamy
silentwatcher1947 wrote: Kochu , do you have a guru and have all the knoledge to speak?

Please read : 18842

Yes! he is and amongst all the moderators here in the group, he is the person who is has more experience and knowledgeable than us, except that he is too modest to admit it. He does not flaunt nor brag about it. That is why we [ speaking from Devi Bhakta, sunelectric and myself] we like him and respect him for what he is. Lets us close this subject here.

ishaan wrote: Yes sex as a form of Sadhana is a very deceptive thing and must be avoided at all costs. Its like fooling ourselves. Osho preached about "Sambhog se Samadhi" meaning "From Sex to Sublime" which is impossible. Following Osho many people have generated a perverted meaning of Shakti Sadhana. It is a great Tragedy. Veer bhava speaks of considering Goddess as your wife or wife as ur goddess and get spiritual elevation, but I think Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa has shown us all the forms of Shakti Worship and he never had Sex. So stop considering sex as a spiritual practice my dear Brothers and Sisters.

Sorry but I beg to differ. Sex is a sacred act and in Shakti Sadhana as I am being taught, is used only as a tool and not a motivator. Sex is only being used by those sadhak/sadhika who are advance spiritually and only at the guidance of a guru. The problem is when people who have no proper guidance decide to be a hero and go on their own thinking they have know it all. If you think Sex is bad, that is your opinion but please do not try to impose it on another.

Please remember you are in a Shakta group and we do not have any issues about sex and its uses in our Sadhana. For you to come here and tells us our practices is wrong and should be avoided, is extremely rude!

"Woman is a mother first and shakti sadhana considering a woman/shakti as a mother first is the best way."

As far as I am concern, Devi as the lover is the highest form of devotion. Mother and child is second best and simplest because its much easier for simple minded sadhak to related to. But as a child you remain as a separate entity. Only lovers merge to be one, that is the purpose of our Sadhana. To merge with the Divine.

You can never merge with your mother. Its an incense relationship, unless of course you go back to the mothers womb. When you are fully term and attached to the umbilical cord : that is when mother and child is one.

This reminds me of a picture of Tara as pot bellied, as if she is pregnant. Its being suggested that Tara is pregnant with the world. But in my opinion Tara carries a child in her womb. That child is us the sadhak/sadhika. That is an image when Mother and child is One.

silentwatcher1947 wrote: Please do not stimulate sex thoughts in this group.

Why not? You are embarress to even think about it? I think that is perhaps a child mentality. To even think that their parent do have sex is sickening to them?

I am being told by my guru, in olden days, one of the ways of the guru to teach the sisya esp the women abt some shakti sadhana concepts is via sex. But that is olden days. Mind you my guru is not some western initiate with this new age ideas. He/She is a traditionalist and from India.

Ishaan
For the purpose of the group I think that it is better to talk about Shakti more as a Mother rather than Giving a Sexual Dimension to it. It is better for the group. Consider a woman a Mother First and keep the example of Ramakrishna Paramhansa in front of you. Ramakrishna Paramhansa was predominantly as Shakti Sadhak and was at the pinnacle of tantra sadhana. Ramakrishna Paramhansa never had Sex. He must be our Ideal.

NMadasamy
Sorry, for the purpose of the group, its better to discuss Shakti Sadhana as it should be from our understanding. Please read the introduction to our group page :

"Make information available. Let people take it or leave it, think it is true or false, judge you as they think fit. Tell them: 'Come here if you like. Don't come if you don't like. Only try to see for yourself. Don't blindly accept what others say.'"

~ Sri Amritananda Natha Saraswati

Ramakrishna Paramhans is your ideal it is fine, but not to all. Guru Amritananda Natha Saraswati is one of our ideal guru. My guru [ who happen to be a member of this group] is my ideal and his teachings is what matters to me.

Ishaan
I am sorry guys but if sex is given so much importance then it will not lead to spiritual elevation but it will lead to moral wrecks and social doom.This is my stromgest feeling.

NMadasamy wrote Ramakrishna Paramhans is your ideal it is fine, but not to all. Guru Amritananda Natha Saraswati is one of our ideal guru. My guru [ who happen to be a member of this group] is my ideal and his teachings is what matters to me.

No Problem...I dont have any problems Sir...Go ahead with your way. HE is infinite and so are the ways to attain him. I have no Problem.

NMadasamy
ishwarananda wrote: I am sorry guys but if sex is given so much importance then it will not lead to spiritual elevation but it will lead to moral wrecks and social doom.This is my stromgest feeling.

And in my strongest feeling, there is nothing wrong with Sex. The problem is when Sex is being abuse. If you track back this whole message, it started with my comment: Approaching Devi as a lover, does it mean about having Sex. And I bring an example about my conversation with a young man who try to rationalise it with this Sex and beer advertisement.

And I futher remarked : why sex and tantric sex becomes so popular because Sex sells. Advertiser use Sex to exploit men's weakness. The point it most men do not see this.

Thus is you look again at my message and kochu, we stress again and again, Sex is a tool and not a motivator. It is just like other tool we used in Shakti Sadhana in this process of DEVIHOOD. A tool not meant for all. But you see people do not read the message : not meant for all. All they see is the SEX! SEX! SEX!

My Pranam to Swami Ishwarananda of Siddha Org.

Ishaan
The feeling that I am having now...Hmm, now I know why ancient tantra sadhaks kept their ways secret. These things must be kept secret and not be opened to all is my opinion as of now. This path is extremely difficult and there is great danger of falling down instead of rising. Sir I request you to keep these things secret because not everyone is blessed with a real guru in Shakti Sadhana. This is just my personal opinion, nothing against anyone.

NMadasamy
Well we agree your suggestion that certain things must be kept secret. hey! just some time back somebody comes here and say, to keep information and knowledge secret is being egolistical and it is bad. It should be avoided at all. How ironic eh!.

But you see we are in the age of information revolution. You can get what ever information you want in the net even how to assemble a bomb. Thus it is the obligation of Shakti Sadhana to try our best to { I do not want to use this word but I cant think of other terms to use ] 'guide' others who comes here to seek the information. We do not claim to be the authority in Shakti Sadhana, but we provide what we know best with the guidance with our Guru here.

sankara menon
Oh I forgot!! There is a Parashurama aphorism "Swa maatru jaaravat gopyataa" "Thou shalt keep it secret as thou would an illicit relationship of your mother". Now I unerstand the full meaning of it. For ppl n of THAT leel it is ununerstandable. If Mishra saab is to search he will unerstand. The higher teachings are really ended and the code is revealed only to the worthy. And in other plaes they are explicit and as an experiment by Nora here on SS showed, only the worthy even notice it.

Mary Ann
Yes, removing the sexual componenent would turn it into what we know as Christianity. kochu1tz wrote:Oh I forgot!! There is a Parashurama aphorism "Swa maatru jaaravat gopyataa" "Thou shalt keep it secret as thou would an illicit relationship of your mother". Now I unerstand the full meaning of it. For ppl n of THAT leel it is ununerstandable. If Mishra saab is to search he will unerstand. The higher teachings are really ended and the code is revealed only to the worthy. And in other place they are explicit and as an experiment by Nora here on SS showed, only the worthy even notice it.

Wow, interesting quote. I'm reading a biography of Wilhelm Reich, and it's precisely an illicit relationship of his mother's that led to terrible pain and anguish, death, craziness in the family. I believe it led to his mother's suicide and his father's suicide.

sankara menon
ishaan wrote: I am sorry guys but if sex is given so much importance then it will not lead to spiritual elevation but it will lead to moral wrecks and social doom.This is my stromgest feeling.

For the unitiated and ineligible what you say is absolutly right. But that doeds not mean that it is the ONLY path. One in 10,000 or 100 000 becomes a sadhak and one in a million sadhaks is lucky to find the righnt guru and mong them one may - just MAY qualify for that path.

It is not for every one.

Arjuna Taranandanatha
Interesting to note how much negative emotions are aroused in those who are "sattvic" and against "dirty" things like sex... Very informative from the psycological point of view.

ishwarananda@g...> wrote: For the purpose of the group I think that it is better to talk about Shakti more as a Mother rather than Giving a Sexual Dimension to it. It is better for the group. Consider a woman a Mother First and keep the example of Ramakrishna Paramhansa in front of you. Ramakrishna Paramhansa was predominantly as Shakti Sadhak and was at the pinnacle of tantra sadhana. Ramakrishna Paramhansa never had Sex. He must be our Ideal.

Shakti is Sexual - in metaphisic sense - above anything, and AFTER that Mother. Because of strict and simple reason - the Godhead is "composed of" Siva and Shakti, Prakasha and Vimarsha, while human and creation are their emanation, in regard to which She is "Mother". Thus erotic love is primer to any other, which is reflected in Hindu scriptures, depicting shringara-rasa as the highest emotion.

Ramakrishna had sex according to certain accounts. Of course we cannot verify this now, but there are no grounds for rejecting such possibility.

Then, there were and are too many saints and siddhas who had wifes, shaktis, enjoyed sex in life and in sadhana both. Lets start from Vedic rishis ;). Then procede to kaula-siddhas: Abhinavagupta, Maheshvarananda, Purnananda, Vamakshepa... And finish with modern kaulikas: Amritananda, Ganapati Sachchidananda and several less famous saints.

Finally, everyone has his own way and Will is sacred. No one is to be Ideal to copy. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

sankara menon wrote: Oh I forgot!! There is a Parashurama aphorism "Swa maatru jaaravat gopyataa" "Thou shalt keep it secret as thou would an illicit relationship of your mother".

Sri Sankara, U are right. But there is one more statement in the Scripture - "kula-sadhana must be opened" in kali-yuga. This was the teaching of my kulacharya...

In fact i expect U agree with this to some degree. Time has changed and now Devi changed old rules. As one kaula said, "Ocean of Kula will flood the ocean of the worldly existance" (forgot the sanskrit original of this sutra, sorry)...

ishaan wrote: The feeling that I am having now...Hmm, now I know why ancient tantra sadhaks kept their ways secret. These things must be kept secret and not be opened to all is my opinion as of now. This path is extremely difficult and there is great danger of falling down instead of rising. Sir I request you to keep these things secret because not everyone is blessed with a real guru in Shakti Sadhana. This is just my personal opinion, nothing against anyone.

The problem is much more complicated now than in ancient times. Nowadays information about Tantric path IS already given out - but usually in incomplete and perverted form, which is really dangerous. To keep silent becomes a sin for the one who knows true meaning of achara. That is why my kulacharya sited Mahanirvana-tantra statement regarding the revealing of Kula secrets.

I understand Ur views and U do have grounds for them. But in my view it is needed to speak openly - that i was taught. Devi will judge if that is right or not...

I underline, that i do not disclose any details of particular rituals, certain mantras and their application etc. These things are to be kept in secret. But DHARMA of Kula is for everyone to hear. Everyone must have the chance to accept Truth...

silentwatcher wrote: Sorry, but I think this is a western Christian concept of sex.

I do not get the meaning. What I had delivered is a purely kaula concept. Christianity is rather asexual if not antisexual in general forms (i do not speak about gnostic sects now)... Hinduism or Shakti worship does not believe in having sex with all girls to gain in Sadhana. That is lust and you do not need a guru to tell you that. Otherwise why do Shakti worship, you can go to bar or pub or a prostitute and gain shakti-sadhana by having sex.

Truth is in between and above. Love is the transforming element. But rejecting sex U reject the root of love...

Maybe it will surprise somebody LOL, but "sex" is not only about genital friction. Pity for those who know love not, but only bodily excitement. Truely, sex is the union of love - the ultimate experience available to human. Shiva Shakti samAyogo yoga eva na saMshayaH...

Are there are such gurus having sex with unmarried women or with others wife to gain in others sadhana?

Yes. There is no problem about this. Kaula-shasana doesn't recognize social marriage or status at all. It respects human FREEDOM and mutual love.

One may take his/her fill of love with whomever he/she wants. There is no problem about that if it is free.

ishaan wrote: Yes sex as a form of Sadhana is a very deceptive thing and must be avoided at all costs. Its like fooling ourselves.

Again, sex AS sadhana is to be practiced in Kula tradition recieved from guru or yogini. Not by anyone who wants to try it out LOL.

But sex is not an obstacle to sadhana because it is natural and essentially pure. Moreover it gives a chance to see Divine - though only 1 out of 10000 realise that...

Osho preached about "Sambhog se Samadhi" meaning "From Sex to Sublime" which is impossible. Following Osho many people have generated a perverted meaning of Shakti Sadhana. It is a great Tragedy.

Much more had generated a perverted meaning due to "preachers of purity" such as Swami Sivananda etc. To suppress sex causes more damage to phyche than to enjoy it - EVEN if you view it as an obstacle. There is never freedom achieved through suppression and unnatural struggle.

Alas to those lifeless creatures who had cut off the energy of Life and Love due to their egoistic lust for "spiritual power"...

Veer bhava speaks of considering Goddess as your wife or wife as ur goddess and get spiritual elevation,

EVERY married man has to see Devi in his wife. If one loves his wife, he will understand this and accept. If not, they have to depart - only love can unite in Truth...

but I think Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa has shown us all the forms of Shakti Worship and he never had Sex.

How you know, had he told you or Devi Herself? Please, enough baseless pointing at Ramakrishna. We do not know exactly, but more chances are there that he had done sexual sadhanas. Even if not, it doesn't mean anything for us.

For a married person sex is a part of dharma and a way to moksha. To keep away from sexual enjoyment in marriage is a sin according to Scriptures and tradition. Do we speak about normal people or about sannyasins? I assume sannyasins are not sitting in front of monitor but wander around or sit in caves LOL. Leaving sannyasins, for everyone sex is a part of life. What is the use to exclude it? Why not to enjoy and bring holyness into it?

If one is a true sadhaka, every deed turns into a holy act. In the end even shitting is puja to Devi. But let us not start from that :). To start with natural is to start properly.

So stop considering sex as a spiritual practice my dear Brothers and Sisters.

Sex is NOT a sadhana by itself. Noone stated that. But if sex is in love it elevates spiritually and socially both. Otherwise it turns to mere body activity, such as eating or sleep - not bad not good, just natural.

Woman is a mother first and shakti sadhana considering a woman/shakti as a mother first is the best way

Everyone is free to follow his will.

But according to Shakta doctrine what you say is not exact. The highest love is between lovers, not parents/child. The most dear woman is beloved, not mother...

surya Vishnu
Folks My two cents worth:
There was a point of my life when I struggled with where sex fit into spiritual practice, after some probing I had some conceptions that I would want to put across and improve upon from the learned members of the group .. Please note that I am talking here from my perception of sprituality .. to me spirituality is a two step process ultimately:

a) Use the idea of neti neti .. to assert that neither this is brahman nor is that .. and ultimately reach and find that source that can be experienced as the brahman that is the source of all and is without any attributes ...

b) Then, to come back and realise that "this is that" and that everything is ultimately everything that is manifest is brahman as well ... a state where even existing on material plane is equal to samadhi because of the constance feel of presence of brahman everywhere including yourself !

To me these are however only conceptions .. I have no practical experience of either ...

If you look at it you will find 3 groups of people on the spiritual quest:

a) People who are starting off

b) People who are reasonably advanced

c) People who are highly advanced ..

Lot has been written about how sex can be liberating and the moment of orgasm where you lose yourself is akin to samadhi etc etc ... as I see it Sex then has to be put in prespective to these three groups of people to see the spiritual value that sex lends to each of these groups if at all there is any ...

Firstly are there any pre requisites for sex to be of any use in sadhana? To me vairagya is necessary .. dispassion (not non possession) should be a integral part of the personality of a person for anything and everything .. sex needs passion at least for arousal … that brings us to a question of how can sex be dispassionate yet passionate … passion then should be for the god whose reflection we see in the other person involved .. but dispassion should go into the act itself … from this point of view it just becomes an act of unifying the two polarities of existence into oneness and this is a spiritual leap.

a) First group of people are the most confused of the lot. Some people feel sex with love is divine, sex without love is fallen. This is something that dosent go well with my digestive enzymes. Mostly because many questions arise, what is this love we are talking about? A father surely loves his daughter (whatever love is) but morally (should morality matter in spiritual quest?) he cant have sex with her. So what is this love that we are talking about? I am not writing all my internal dialogue here because I cant mostly recollect it and its also unnecessary. My conclusion however is that love has nothing to do with sex. But people in initial stages are better off with the conception that sex and love should go together because that way they wont fall having more and more sex and trying to feel liberated. Can then beginners use sex for spirituality? They cant, because its almost impossible for them to connect to the context where sex can become sacred.

b) For these group of people dispassion becomes a second nature and then sex becomes a means to ends of losing ones identity during orgasm and a means or pleasuring and indulging in the feminine part of reality and not an act of self indulgance. Again for this I suspect both man and women in the act should be in that state of mind. Here love for the divine and not love for the individual involved that becomes necessary and sufficient condition. And Mind you this feeling cannot be induced by assertion alone, it has to be actually experienced failing which I opine we are in for more karmic trouble than pleasure.

c) For highly advanced group of spiritual aspirants, sex cannot add any value at all, simply because anyone who has tasted Samadhi will anyhow confirm the joy and apparent loss of individual ego and experiencing god is far better than using sex to do anything necessary. Every act then becomes incidental because when ends have been reached means have no meaning ...

Another question to be asked then is, is this something that cannot be attained without sex? To me the answer is no, like comments from other learned members, sex can be a risky and easily a deterrent than a help. I am not trying to be a moral police here, I have my shares of baggages to carry, but even for the value it adds sex is best left alone from spiritual practices is what I feel.

For those of you with more experience and learning than me .. my humble apologies for talking of things I never experienced. The only justification I can give is that we all have theories that we improve upon or discard with experience …

silentwatcher1947
I think many youth will be attracted in this group , because this group serves the purpose of the youth have sex ,gain divine knowledge, divinity.........sowe will have more premarriage sex to gain Shakti Sadhana. What a lovely spiritual thoughT!!

nmadasamy wrote: I am being told by my guru, in olden days, one of the ways of the guru to teach the sisya esp the women abt some shakti sadhana concepts is via sex. But that is olden days. Mind you my guru is not some western initiate with this new age ideas. He/She is a traditionalist and from India.

You seemed to be fooled by a fake guru into it and seems like you yourself had sex with your guru to gain Shakti_Sadhana.

NMadasamy

This whole statement tells me that you never really read nor try to find an understanding at all. Did you read the statment I put there : In the olden days. Weather its still a practice it is still subjective. We have stress it many time : Sex is not for all. And like many you choose to ignore the basic issue. Yes ! it seems you too are obsess with Sex. This people is what I am trying to tell you. People are so obsess with Sex that they dont think first. Its their weakness and they choose not to admit it. They like to blame on others of their weakness.

Have you met my guru. Do you whom who that person is? For you to come here can call others fake, showed how limited your mentality capacity to go beyond.

silentwatcher1947 wrote: I think many youth will be attracted in this group , because this group serves the purpose of the youth have sex ,gain divine knowledge,divinity.........sowe will have more premarriage sex to gain Shakti Sadhana. What a lovely spiritual thoughT!!

Now for your information, not many youth are attracted to our group. Kochu is past 50 yrs old. He initiated at the age of 16 yrs. Devi bhakta and me are 43's. We are both married with children, And abt 80% of our members with exception of you[ as I can guess your mentality] that is past the 40 age group. Majority of them are householder. So your statement is baseless. I think its you who is in a wrong group. My suggestion to you, my dear young man, better safe yourselve before its too late.

sankara menon
it is said vaak is God. So it is said in all religions including the a brahamic faiths. Here what we see is an inability to understand vAk.

Nora never said she has sex with her Guru. All she said was while discussing theory the old practices were mentioned. NOT THAT IT TOOK PLACE BETWEEN HER AND HER GURU.

I know an 80+ kaula guru wo just seats the female deciple on his lap then smile and say we are supposeed to have se; but am I not too old? this is symbolic consummation. This too is another path.

There are paths and paths. one for each so lets not dwell on what is good for one if it is not acceptable to you.

Dear friends pay obeisence to Saraswati as vaak and read carefully before exploding.

Rama R Iyer
This is from another group which I read and thought it apt to share here.....Let me reproduce a passage from Osho's 'From Sex to Super-consciousness':

Quote
I, with same friends, had been to Khajuraho, to see the world-famous temple. The outermost wall, the periphery of the temple is depicted with pictures of sexual intercourse in various poses. There are sculptures of different postures in the process of sexual gratification. My friends inquired as to why those sculptures were there. And around a temple? I told them that the architects who built these temples were highly intelligent people. They believed that on the outer circumference of life there was passion, sex, those who were still entangled in Sex had no right to enter inside the temple.

We went in.

There was just an idol of God inside. My friends were surprised not to see any statues of sex inside. I told them that on the outer wall of life there is lust, passion, whereas the temple of God is inside. Those who are still enchanted by passion, sex cannot reach the temple of God inside; they are still roaming around the outer wall.

The makers of this temple were very sensible people. This was a meditation centre. Sexuality is on the surface of all around, placidity is in core, at the centre. They used to tell the aspirants to meditate on sex, to reflect fully on copulations on the outside wall first. When one had thoroughly understood it and was sure that the mind was free from sex, then he may enter inside. Then one can see God 'inside'.

Then only the world of Rama can emerge out of the world of Kama,a world of compassion out of the world of passion! Unquote

yoosh
from the book "Practice of Brahmacharya" by Sivananda: The most devitalising and demoralizing of pleasures is the sex pleasure. Sensual enjoyment is attended with various defects. It is attended with various sorts of sins, pains, weaknesses, attachments, slave mentality, weak will, severe exertion and struggle, craving and mental restlessness.

childofdevi

Hi Arjuna,
I wont comment on the sheer ridiculousness of the statement below other than to say that Swami Sivananda was one of the greatest mahatmas to walk on this earth.

A little tidbit of info for you: Swami Sivananda personally initiated and instructed Swami Satyananda Paramahamsa into Tantra. Swami Satyananda is well versed in tantra including Vamachara and initiates only a few people.

So why did Sivananda prescribe brahmacharya for most - because most people were sex addicts, so this was his way of telling that they must develop self control.

Make no mistake - if you lack willpower to maintain celibacy at will, then you are certainly not a Kaula, just an animal. The standard of conduct for a Kaula is high, VERY FEW people meet those standards...

Arjuna Taranandanatha
I say sorry for calling him a fool.

But the thing regarding contra-dharmic idea of celibacy for all is still remaining. It's ok not to preach tantric way at every door LOL, but it doesn't mean it's ok to push upon poor people such strict, unnecessary and harmful restrictions. I really do not see any good sense in that. If U do, i am eager to hear...

You know, in ISKCON the perverted idea of brahmacharya is also held. And i know that because of it many families suffer like hell and love is not there. These preachings aren't safe - they are destroying lifes of people...

childofdeviSo why did Sivananda prescribe brahmacharya for most - because most people were sex addicts, so this was his way of telling that they must develop self control.

Once again, this kind of prescription is against dharma of Vedas and smriti (i leave Tantras aside for Ur sake).

Thus he was preaching adharma - whatever "good" reasons given it doesn't change the fact.

Krishna had said in Gita, that it is better to follow one's own dharma imperfectly than to follow some other's perfectly. It is foolish for grihasthi to take vows of sannyasi or conduct of brahmachari. This is what healthy hinduism and any other normal religion teaches.

U see, people speculate around vedanta and gita etc, but simple and clear teachings are left aside and their place is taken by strange diversions...

Kochu
MY DEAR ARJUNA!! TANRA IS NO THE ONL PATH. THERE ARE OTHJER PATHS FOR WHI CELIBAC AND CONTROL ARE PRE-REQUESITES. LETS NO DENIGRATE OTHER PATHS. JST SAY IN MY PATH THIS IS SO. SARWA DHARMAANINDA IS ANOTHER APHISM OF PARASHURAMA. LETS FOLLOW THAT???

Adwaith Menon
sadhana or worshipping is like a physical procedure code book when we have 'devotion' in our heart. devotion can be there with or without rituals. but if there is no real devotion in heart , 'sadhana' will go meaningless. like that "sex" is the code book when there is 'love' in heart. and when there is no love in heart, sex will get degraded. and then again, when we really 'love', it will be the same as devotion. true love and devotion are one and the same. so.......the rest is thinkable..........

Len Rosenberg
yoosh wrote: from the book "Practice of Brahmacharya" by Sivananda: The most devitalising and demoralizing of pleasures is the sex pleasure. Sensual enjoyment is attended with various defects. It is attended with various sorts of sins, pains, weaknesses, attachments, slave mentality, weak will, severe exertion and struggle, craving and mental restlessness. According to Ayurveda, semen is the last Dhatu that is formed out of food. Out of food is manufactured chyle.

Ruled by Bramani...

"Out of chyle comes blood".

Blood is ruled by Maheshvari...

"Out of blood comes flesh"

Flesh is ruled by Kaumari...

"Out of flesh comes fat"

Fat is ruled by Vaishnavi...

"Out of fat comes bone"

Bone is ruled by Varahi...

"Out of bone comes marrow"

Marrow is ruled by Indrani...

"Out of marrow comes semen"

Semen is ruled by Chamunda...

These are the Sapta Dhatus or the seven Dhatus that support this life and body.

Note that the Dhatus are ruled by the Sapta Matrikas. Normally the central Mother is Vaishnavi, giving pride of place to Fat and abundance. When a town is threatened by loss of population, the image of Chamunda is placed as central Mother, so that Semen and reproduction is emphasized.

Perhaps if Varahi is placed in central position, the emphasis is on Bone and strength or protection?

Mark here how precious is semen! It is the last essence. It is the Essence of essences. The Veerya comes out of the very marrow that lies concealed inside the bones.

Semen is the quintessence of food or blood. One drop of semen in manufactured out of forty drops of blood according to modern medical science. According to Ayurveda, it is elaborated out of eighty drops of blood.

Falling of semen brings death; preservation of semen gives life. Semen is the real vitality in men. It is the hidden treasure in man. It imparts Brahma-Tejas to the face and strength to the intellect.


As Monty Python used to sing: "Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is good..."

"It is a medical and physiological fact that the best blood in the body goes to form the elements of reproduction in both the sexes.In a pure and orderly life, this matter is reabsorbed. It goes back into circulation ready to form the finest brain, nerve and muscular tissues. This vital fluid of man carried back and diffused through his system makes him manly, strong, brave and heroic. If wasted, it leaves him effeminate, weak and physically debilitated and prone to sexual irritation and disordered function, a wretched nervous system, epilepsy, and various other diseases and death. The suspension of the use of the generative organs is attended with a notable increase of bodily and mental and spiritual vigour."

"All waste of spermatic secretions, whether voluntary or involuntary, is a direct waste of the life force. It is almost universally conceded that the choicest element of the blood enters into the composition of the spermatic secretion. If these conclusions are correct, then it follows that a chaste life is essential to man's well-being."

Mind, Prana and Veerya are one. By controlling the mind, you can control Prana and semen. By controlling Prana you can control the mind and semen. By controlling semen, you can control the mind and Prana.

If the Veerya is steady, the mind also is steady.

Veerya is the essence of life, thought, intelligence and consciousness. Therefore, preserve this vital fluid very, very carefully, my dear readers!


Yet the female equivalent of Veerya, Rakta (Menstrual fluid) is given away by the body every month!

Preserve your sperm, and give away your menses.

Max Dashu
Quote from another source “>the act of sex is done , on a specific night,star and tithi according to the respective tantra, with a girl who has not lost her virginity and the womb of the girl is placed at the altar on Amavasya. This is the high end tantra which confers high powers to the tantrik. Even the deities are also demanding on the tantrik who resorts to such repeated murderous acts.”

High end? It is tragic that anyone would believe that any spiritual merit would come as the result of using another human being in this way. It is purely cannibalism. Even without the murder, the descriptions of other rites demanding to use a girl or teen or woman, often with the condition of virginity, as a tool toward such ends are just depressing. Such a sacrifice is to the ego, not of it. I am convinced that there are those who perform sexual rites in another way, but many of the texts seem to speak of the female partner as a necessary thing rather than as a conscious being

sankara menon

This is all bull and misinterpretation. This misinterpertationsd are what gives tantra a bad name.

It like arjuna said "swayambhu pushpa" means something else!! Similarly the words are allegories for other things and internal meditations. Having taken litteral meanings where they are not intended to be taken as such people do cruel inhuman acts and nothing; just nothing will happen. N siddhi will flow from such acts.

surya Vishnu
Its ironical that most of us as children start off with pure and correct approach to most things .. but as we grow up we seem to compound our gross ness .. mainly because of hurts, inconsistant values placed on us .. this compounded with a lack of proper maturity/skills to deal with things objectively can essentially lead you astray without proper guidance (inner or outer) ..

. Although quite a number of young people do have the correct notions .. its very easy for them to go astray without an anchor to latch on to .. that was the point of view from which I was coming from .... From my point of view it is the same thing I think also places importance on having a guru to latch onto till the point where your own inner guru is not awakened ...

I totally agree that love cant exist both without disciplin as well as mutual respect, these to me are totally based on the maturity a person has at any point of his life and a willingness to learn and grow ... quite a number of adults I have seen in my life are more stuck in their biases and immaturity, but again that is also a phase they seem to undergo, most often the destination seems to be the same .. life has its way of teaching same/similar lessons to all ...

The Father daughter relation you are taking of is a particular case of abuse ... but then why shudnt there be genuine love as well?(Please do note that from where i stand I cant digest such relations myself for now) ... what about father and daughter relation where neither is aware of the existing relation (for whatever reasons) as such and approach each other as adults in love? are we saying in such cases such relations can be accepted?

Let me introduce a new point of view here: I essentially believe in non-duality (as propounded by adi sankaracharya ... at the same time I believe in duality till such a experience of non-duality manifests in a person) ... but when you look at it from a non-duality point of view .. between two people .. who is having sex with whome if everything is essential one and only one? if a person does indeed realise this "experientially" (important word in this context - I dont think "aham brahmasmi" renders a person brahman) then would any such father/daughter relations have any significance in the act of sex or anything else (assuming the person still decides to have sex from such a state) ..

I think its very essential to clearly identify the plane we are talking about when we talk of sex or anything else .. because from each plane the issues to be delt with are different and hence the rules and treatments will be different ... some people end up exploiting this very difference, how do we know who is exploiting and who is not?? that is a different question all together!

Childofdevi
Once again refrainment from sex is advised more as means to conserve vitality than for any moral reason. If you can conserve vitality, there is no reason to refrain from sex even as per the yoga classics.

If you read the works of Swami Sivananda and Swami Satyananda, there are numerous hints at the practice of vajroli. A sincere practitioner can achieve success in vajroli based on these hints(nowhere else will you find these hints). This is my gift to you.

It is for this reason why the Kularnava has stated that one has to practice astanga yoga in the graveyard, prior to becoming a kaula. Rather than taking it at face value, I think it means that certain yogic practices are necessarily for many kaula rituals...

Devi Bhakta
I have now received what I would consider to be a critical mass of offline requests from members to tone down the sex-themed discussions that have dominated the board for the last few days.

What this preponderance of sex-related posts means, I am not sure. Perhaps many of our more serious sadhaks are off board these days, too preoccupied with observing the Navratri holiday as we approach its halfway point tonight. It would be quite wonderful to believe that this is so.

For the rest, I would merely note (as has been noted before by wiser people than I) that sex is but a single small aspect of tantra, albeit one of the more sensationalistic ones. Unfortunately, it is also the aspect most prone to misunderstanding and misinterpretation, particularly by newcomers and others who understand little or nothing of the traditions and contexts from which and within which such practices emerged.

Moreover, while there is certainly nothing wrong with good sex, per se -- it's part of healthy, normal life, and it can be a lot of fun -- there is very little relationship between ordinary (or even extraordinary) sex, and Tantric maithuna. They are two different things altogether. Those coming from outside the tradition may find it exciting and inspiring to find a religious system that does not condemn human sexuality and even seeks to harness its energy as a part of sadhana. But the fact is, Shaktism accepts sex because it is a part of life. It does not elevate sex to central importance. It gives sex precisely the same importance it has in everyday life: It is central when the time is right, but on a day-to-day basis it takes up a rather small percentage of our many essential daily activities. So it is with maithuna.

Harnessing sexual energy through the practice of maithuna is neither physically pleasurable or mentally tittilating. It is a spiritual act requiring great restraint and discipline, and strict adherance to given procedures. It is a form of puja. Anything less may provide great pleasure and excitement and fulfillment, but it is not to be confused with maithuna and therefore does not really belong in this discussion group.

As I see it, to devote 90 percent of group discourse to a topic that only a few of the most serious sadhaks know well does a disservice both to the larger subject of Shakti Sadhana (which extends far beyond sexuality issues) and to this sacred place dedicated to the glorification and worship of Devi.

Epecially now, during Her most holy festival, I believe that our discussions should rise to a higher plane.

K.H.K.Prasad
The real issue is about Ojus, not sex. Here both brahmacharis and tantrics have the same belief. the difference is brahmacharis reject sex alltogether ,where as some neo tantric try to "eat the cake and have it too". it leads to perversion. that give rise to some kind of writings,poetry etc. Everything written in sanskrit need not be sacred

Nina
Greetings, all.I am a long time lurker here, and greatly respect those who post here the very authoritative information. I hope that what I say now will not diffuse the ongoing discussion. If you deem it does, my sincere apologies.

My perspective is somewhat unique, and I believe it resonates with this particular thread.

First a little intro of me - I have studied Crowley and other western tradition occultists quite thoroughly for about 35 years, and have studied Eastern traditions for about 30 years. The motivation for my study was that, when I attained puberty, I realized that I was quite psychic (particularly telepathy) and had a spontaneous kundalini awakening which enabled me to "do stuff" which I had no explanation for or context at the time. It disturbed me greatly that I could "do stuff" that, in my reading and research, apparently most others strived a lifetime to achieve. So, my process was a bit backwards (still is, haha), in that I am continually finding descriptions of "stuff" that I do that helps me to understand what context others have for it. I spent the greater part of my teens learning how to control myself so as to not adversely affect myself or others through lack of discipline. When I was 19, I devoted myself to Her, and havereceived instructions and guidance as visions, omens and whatnot, since.

A few years ago, I decided to take some time to ask the question (again) "why can I do all this *stuff*?" ... and began a very intense period of instruction from Her, which took me deeply into an extended (and still ongoing) Working which you might call of a "white tantra" nature. (By the way, I have been mostly physically celibate for about 25 years or so, not for any particular reason, just seemed to work for me at the time, still does.) I encountered a fellow online with whom I connect telepathically (for the first several months, we also communicated by email, but now it is all psychic) in meditation on a regular basis. (I meditate an hour or two a day ... usually starting with a chakra balancing thingy, and then "pulling down" into me the brightness of Her, and going from there.)

Well. This connection with the fellow, whom I call my Twin (later, I found other references to this term, which was quite surprising to me) was/is ecstatic ... well, that's an understatement. It is as if time and space are meaningless when we meet in meditation. Unbelievable sensation/communion/bliss. There have been times where we have connected for hours, and I would say it is the best "sex" I've ever had. It is as if, as we link, chakra by chakra and then all at once, each thought is orgasmic. I learned how to do this through praying to Her for guidance and instruction. The thought/methods would reveal themselves to me, and then we did these things.

Since then, I have communed with others, both men and women, and have been able to show them (again, telepathically) how the Flow is ... my understanding from cross referencing this is that this is akin to what y'all might call "channeling shaktipat".

So, my point in posting, is that "sex" does not require physical contact (though I would note that the telepathic journeys I take have VERY real physical, um, outcomes). It disturbs me somewhat that the illusion of the separateness implied by the meatsack body is characterizing the debate of whether "sex" is an appropriate topic with respect to Shakti. To me, each breath in meditation brings ecstacy - I cannot see how this is in anyway a bad thing!

A couple of practical observations (I don't know if they are generalizablebut they are consistent with me, anyways) ... I have found that the time of my greatest psychic receptivity is when ovulating ... and would suggest to any woman seeking the path of tantra to avoid hormonal therapies like birth control pills. I also have found that periods of extreme solar/magnetic activity (lots of sunspots and stuff) make psychic communication/communion more difficult.

The old Gaelic literal translation of "I love you" is "I'm other you". To me, this is an apt summary of Ardhanarishavara.

Well, I think I've said enough, and hope I've not said too much! I pray I've not offended any with my remarks; they are intended only to represent my point of view and nothing more.

devishaktiindia wrote:
Swami Vivekananada on the ancient ideals of Hindusim of BRAHMACHARYATaken from other site: (http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/2003/10-12/26-27_hanuman.shtml) , that I feel is the biggest and the greatest of all ideals of Hinduism though never understood and always misinterpreted . Though the modern intellects and sadhaks in the world love to have new ideals as Arjuna says that brahmacharya is out and have now completely replaced Brahmacharya with the new age culture. Never the less a few line of Swami Vivekananda on the once cherised ideal of Brahmacharya.

Arjuna Taranandanatha
It is indeed funny! What I expressed is the teaching of ancient Tantras, not a "new age" crap. Sri Abhinavagupta discussed true brahmacharya in his Tantraloka - it was written in beginning of 11th century! Where did Vivekananda live LOL?

There is nothing in Vedas and early Upanishads about sex-suppression either. The whole idea of "brahmacharya" as celibacy is a misconception. Some people having no proper diksha couldn't understand the meaning of certain teachings and understood them too literally. Along with this the niyamas of brahmacharins and sannyasins were put upon grihasthas - which is a direct violation of Hindu dharma, common sense and God's nature.

rajeshwari iyer
Nina wrote : I have been mostly physically celibate for about 25 years or so, not for any particular reason, just seemed to work for me at the time, still does.)
I AM WRITING IN BOLD LETTERS: ARE YOU OR WHERE YOU EVER MARRIED PHYSICALLY TO YOUR OPPOSITE SEX?

IF SO, HOW YOUR PARTNER HANDLE RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU?

YOU MAY BE PHYSICALLY CELIBATE, Yet, you are ENJOING UNION IN OTHER FORM. Is this justified?

Is this what all spritually evolved people are after? Samadhi, ectasy all are nothing but sexual orgasm.

Since, you talk of orgasm, I presume that you are or were married at some stage, if not, at least must have had some serious relationship.

I am not against sex or orgasm - My question is, How other partner handle ,when one partner is engaged is spiritual orgasm while other is not? In normal life, this sort of action can break the soul of opposite sex and cause lot of pain.

Nina
rajii31 wrote:I AM WRITING IN BOLD LETTERS: ARE YOU OR WHERE YOU EVER MARRIED PHYSICALLY TO YOUR OPPOSITE SEX?
No. I have had several long term relationships, but have never chosen to be defined by others into a particular role, such as that which is defined as "wife" "girlfriend" or what not.

IF SO, HOW YOUR PARTNER HANDLE RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU?
I am in a long term relationship, now. It is tough for him, sometimes, but he knows I have always been very involved in "occult practices". His mother was a native American shaman, so it is not beyond his realm of understanding. There was a time, many years ago, where we did have physical sex (note - I'd said "mostly" in my previous posting), I used it to heal him ... now I heal by providing a lovely, serene and secure environment for us to live in. He is uncomfortable with what one might call generally the "invisible world" (I have many types of dealings with noncorporal beings) .. so we have sort of a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. It helps also that I am an extremely good cook :

YOU MAY BE PHYSICALLY CELIBATE, Yet, you are ENJOING UNION IN OTHER FORM. Is this justified?
Why should I not enjoy my meditations? Also, I'd like to note that, while the first seven years were an intended discipline (actually, I disallowed ANY physical contact of ANY kind, even the most casual) the balance of the time has just been going with the flow :) Who knows, this afternoon circumstances might point me another direction!

Is this what all spritually evolved people are after? Samadhi, ectasy all are nothing but sexual orgasm.

I have no idea what "all spiritually evolved people are after" ... I find that it is a very fun and productive way to deepen a meditation, by balancing breath and flow and ecstacy ... and it allows me to open further, in the same way as physical excitement in sex induces a deeper embrace.

Since, you talk of orgasm, I presume that you are or were married at some stage, if not, at least must have had some serious relationship.

Never married, never had a traditional relationship of any kind, but yes, I am quite experienced in the physical arena, if that's what you're asking.

I am not against sex or orgasm - My question is, How other partner handle ,when one partner is engaged is spiritual orgasm while other is not? In normal life, this sort of action can break the soul of opposite sex and cause lot of pain.

It is not an easy path, but what is? And, as I mentioned above, that just happens to be the way it is this morning :) I would not restrict any possibilities, I just mentioned the celibacy thing as it seemed to be part of the issues being discussed and therefore perhaps relevant to my point of view.

SR.Raj kumar
Knowledge is gained through reading and others relating their own experience or related people. When none of us know the truth, it could still hold as good to be true and should not be objected to as false unless proved otherwise. When we witness many strange things happening in the present days, there is a possibility that this could be true. To state if a certain article is true or not lies in proof. I have clearly stated that it is knowledge gained through other sources. And definitely i wouldnt agree that all those being published in the group is out of one's own experience. hence I would also invite the knowledge of those who are related to such incidents or discussions.



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