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prainbow61 I'm a little overwhelmed by the density of the guru threads. However, it *has* been very interesting and lively.I found myself thinking, "what about the first guru?" Who was the first guru? Is it always a lineage thing? Do fresh gurus ever pop up without the benefit of prior gurus or incarnated deities? Since my faith is supposed to be a living faith and I find that my contemporaries sometimes seem to overvalue "ancient" things, I sometimes consult an image in my mind. She is a young woman on the bank of a river in Ireland, long, long ago. She is one of the first witches and she is at that moment who she will become even though she is not yet fully realized. She will, in her lifetime, uncover and pass along a wealth of knowledge. Therefore I know that she is intelligent, in tune, even inspired. She lives in a world so full of life, with so few people that all is open to her. When I think of her, I know that she is looking to the future, not to the past. She is creating rituals to suit current purposes and to serve living people. She is reading the present and understanding it fully. . I place myself on that river bank and I feel her passion, her inquisitiveness and her dedication. I know that these things are the foundation of a faith that will serve the future. I know that I have to have that same passion, inquisitiveness and dedication and I must live now, neither ignoring the wisdom of the past, nor enslaved to it. That makes me wonder about the guru. If there is a first witch, there must be a first guru, or a protoguru. Is there? OmpremOM Prainbow Are you overwhelmed by the intensity as well as the density of the Guru threads? This is a hot topic for many. For those who proclaim that a Guru is not necessary, Swami Sivananda makes this perceptive observation, "Some teachers mislead their aspirants. They say to all. 'Think for yourself. Do not surrender yourself to any Guru'. When one says, 'Do not follow any Gurus', he intends to be the listener's Guru himself. Do not approach such pseudo-Gurus." With regard to the first Guru, is not God/Goddess the first Guru? In addition, Swami Sivananda says that there are people who attain spiritual perfection without study under any Guru. But, he says that these "should not be cited as authoratative against the necessity for a Guru". He says, "such great men [and women] are the anomalies of spiritual life, and not the common normality. They come into existence as spiritual masters as a result of the intense service, study and meditation practised in previous births. They had already studied under the Guru. The present birth is only its continuative spiritual effect. Hence, the importance of the Guru is not lessened thereby." Om Namah Sivaya Nora Greetings Prainbrow Well I'm also overwhelmed by the density of the guru threads. Though I find it fascinating, somehow I don't think about it very much. The idea of a guru hardly cross my mind except for once, and my believe it that if its meant to be then let it be, otherwise im happy and comfortable with what I have. Devi I believe is my first probably my last guru. She is that elderly lady [ whom I called my fairy godmother ] whom appears on and off [ especially in my dreams ] to give me guidance. Some words about the guru scares me though : "the guru takes over your soul" and several others. In this lifetime ive seen good friends being drawn into this guru things what seems to be more of a blind faith than a `bridge that help the student to cross over'. Perhaps I still have to overcome this fear before I can actually willing to surrender myself to a guru. Besides Devi, I believe my first guru is my nursing `guru'. A very strict Roman Catholic Nurse [ she is more like a nun ]. Nobody likes her [ the students I mean] . She was voted the most outstanding nurse of the year many times. But gosh ! I love her. I adore her and the more strict she is the more I am drawn to her. When she got angry and her face flush in fury at us, the more I adore her. Its her words that keep playing in my head " only when you are in that situation you will understand what I am talking about" and yes! She is right. Now I began to understand everything she have been trying to impart to us. No I don't worship her nor do I keep a picture of her like I did for the elderly lady [ that I posted in the group photo ] Don'tshe deserve anything. Yes ! she does. She have already a place in my head. Now I am echoing every word of hers to my own student. Now would you consider that as the same spiritual kind of Guru that we are talking about? It all depends then right!. To me at that stageof life, my nursing career is my religion, so naturally to say that she is my "guru" spiritually or otherwise. Most of the time in the group you will see Devi Bhakta message about the Guru. Why didn't I participate in it [ as some body suggested]. It is because Devi Bhakta have said what there is need to be said beautifully [Devi gift to him I believe]. In our regular conversation, surprisingly we agreed on a lot of issues especially with regards to Guru. And I will repeat again that we do not have anything against Guru nor are we an anti Guru. I don't mind having members coming here quoting their guru's or any other guru's words, but they must be able to explain to me or to any other members should we question them and not be like a parrot as suggested by menoon2002. I have my own set of nursing students, and to me it is important that they understand what they learn via their own understanding and not what I want them to understand. It drives me nuts when they come to me and said " this is so because the other nursing tutors says so". I will go "explain! explain! In your own words what do you understand by it". Am I being wrong in this approach? Omprem OM Nora In addition to the rugged individualism of some (i.e. high ego and nationalist programming) that prevents them from acknowledging the value of a Guru, there are many such as yourself who have some fear of the Guru idea. You said, "Some words about the guru scares me though : "the guru takes over your soul" and several others. In this lifetime ive seen good friends being drawn into this guru things what seems to be more of a blind faith than a `bridge that help the student to cross over'." Let me assure you that the authentic Guru has no desire to take over your soul. In fact, it is quite the opposite. This Guru has as his/her only goal, the liberation of your soul, the removal of all conditionings that prevent you from knowing your soul, identifying with it and with the greater soul of which it is a part. But there is also the fake Guru who does seek to control you. That is why one should do as you and Devi Bhakta are doing and be in no particular hurry to find a Guru, focusing instead on developing one's spiritual qualities and abilities, purifying one's mind, intellect, pranamaya kosha and heart. This strengthening and purifying has two effects related to Gurus. First, it will enable you to spot the fake Gurus quickly. Second, it will demonstrate to the authentic Guru that you are serious in your spiritual aspirations and eventually worthy of the close attention of a Realized Guru. People without a Guru should spend their time practicing the 8 aspects of Raja Yoga or the various aspects of Bhakti Yoga or devoting themselves to selfless service or reading and pondering objectively the various scriptures instead of running after one or another supposed gurus. Those who desperately want a Guru do so because they sense a lack in themselves and want the Guru to fill that space. But the Guru will not do that because the lack is the lack of purity, humility, resilience, and devotion which can and should all be overcome first by sadhana. Blueblackeyes Guru doesnt have to be another human being,does it?? For myself my guru is God.I ask for guidance and open up to him/her whenever I want to,he/she is always there for me,to watch over me and to protect me. Omprem OM Nora There are two other related ways that one can have fear in regard to the idea of Guru in addition to the fear of being used and abused by a fake Guru and the groundless of fear of being 'taken over' by an authentic Guru. First, an authentic Guru knows every thought that one has, every thought that one has ever had, and every action that one has done. Knowing this, there could be the fear of being judged and the embarassment of having someone know those things that one wants no one to know about. But the Guru is not there to judge, the Guru is there to help the aspirant discard the conditionings that led to those inappropriate thoughts and actions in the first place. When they are dissolved, the aspirant rests in his/her own true identity - that of Brahman. Then they are the same as Guru. Second, there is the natural fear or awe of coming into close and direct contact with the Divine. The Guru is God/Goddess incarnate, Divinity incarnate. One can feel insignificant and inadequate in such a Presence and therefore resist coming into contact with a Guru. But the Guru is there to lead the aspirant to the realization that the aspirant also is God/Goddess incarnate, that Divinity lies within the aspirant and, in fact, is the true identity of the aspirant. Fears of Guru are only misconceptions of the role and intention of the authentic Guru. The Guru can allay those fears just by his/her presence. Or, one can allay their own fears by watching and evaluating the authentic Guru and noticing over time the constancy of their compassion, their love , their God/Goddess Realized nature. Jaya Guru/Jaya Maa Nora OM omprem Thank you once again. You have always amazed and awed me with your wisdom. I have always enjoyed reading your messages not only inShakti Sadhana but also in other groups. Perhaps this is the area that I must explore : FEAR Palms together to you. Colin Namaste prainbow and everyone! The words "the first guru", in your posting, reminded me of the following words by Vimalananda-Swami, an associate of Sir John Woodroffe. "Every Jiva on issuing from his mother's womb, lives on her milk, and receives his first initiation with the Mantra 'Ma' (Mother). The first preceptor (Adiguru) of every man is his mother. She is his visible Devata. His first lessons are learnt of her." (from the Introduction to the Karpuradi Stotra in the 1973 edition of _Hymns to the Goddess_, Ganesh and Co, Madras. You may not find this inearlier editions of _Hymns to the Goddess_.) The relationship between teacher and learner is as old as the relationship between mother and child, and is at least as old as the human race. Our distant (proto-human) ancestors may have taught and learned by example long before they could do so with words. Books are simply another way of passing on information and inspiration. Unfortunately, when we learn from books we sometimes think "I found this out for myself". To think that way is to forget that books have writers. I do agree with your statement: "I must live now, neither ignoring the wisdom of the past, nor enslaved to it." The wisdom of the past may not always match the needs of the present; yet it is a foundation we can build on. Blessings, Omprem OM Nora Wisdom is merely deep observation using not only consciousness of the physical but the consciousness of the chakras. Self-observation is a cornerstone of Raja Yoga. How else would one be aware of the subtle workings of the ego, the subtle ways in which we violate the yamas on a daily (if not hourly) basis, the subtle ways in which we fail to practice the niyamas, the subtle ways in which we pervert asana-pranayama, and the subtle ways in which we attempt to guide our meditations instead of allowing the meditation to guide us. It can all be summed up in one of Swami Sivananda's favouritechants: "Serve, love, give, purify, meditate, realize.Be good, do good, be kind, be compassionate. Adapt, adjust, accommodate.Bear insult, bear injury, highest Sadhana. Bear insult, bear injury, highest Yoga. Enquire, "Who am I ?" Know thyself and be free. Om Tat Sat. Om Tat Sat. Om Tat Sat. Om.Om Shati, Om Peace, Om Shalom, Om." Of course, there are many times each day that I am not up to these high standards, but they remain my standards. OM Namah Sivaya Know thyself and be free. Nora OM omprem "Of course, there are many times each day that I am not up to these high standards, but they remain my standards" Thank you for these beautiful verse. I believe we should never give up in trying to maintain standards for it is the true measure of our sincere desire to achieve our desired goal and objectives. Om ParaShaktiye Namaha |